2 new exceptions

2 new challenges have come onto the exception list
GC316Z3 - My Personal Top Ten - Challenge Cache
and
GC4Y95D - Geschichten aus dem Cacherleben (Challenge)

Interesting that already there is dispute over whether they are challenges or not

I have argued a lot about some some being within the guidelines and so shouldn't be counted and many come back at me and say - if it says 'challenge' in the title, there is criteria within the description - a goal to qualify for
then it is a challenge
I would be interested to hear why these would NOT be challenges

Tim

I voted negative because it is similar as GC3MR7K - The Choose Your Own Challenge Challenge which has 27 down votes

Though I can see you point - and don't disagree I would have downvoted them too - however all have criteria - which seems to be the basis for many moderators upvoting

GC3MR7K - The Choose Your Own Challenge Challenge - the criteria is you set your own goal - if your goal is find 1000 caches - then how is that any different to any 'find a 1000 caches' challenges (for example)

GC316Z3 - My Personal Top Ten - Challenge Cache - the 'goal' is to identify 10 caches that you have found (so you must have found 10 caches) that you would class your top 10

GC4Y95D - Geschichten aus dem Cacherleben (Challenge) - the goal is to find 20 caches and make a story out of the cache names - this is no different to (for example) 'find 20 caches that have the name of a fruit in the title' or similar

So how come, GC424HN - The Unchallenge Challenge has many upvotes - this is no different to the ones mentioned above - except with this one you don't even have to find a cache all the other criteria are jokes - so not really a challenge and yet it gets upvoted

I down voted that one as well

Seems like we may be the only ones actually reading the things ;)

I would like to see a list of features that make a challenge or not challenge. There seems to be some uncertainty, for example, when the cache clearly has an ALR but some part of it is against guidelines. The result depends on which feature is more important.

Do you have an example

and this was the main reason I suggested discussing the criteria for challenges in this forum so that things like this could be thrashed out - I thnk in the long run it gives everyone a better idea as to what will and what wont be acceptable

I picked a random cache from the exeption list. This is quite difficult.

https://coord.info/GC3DD4E

It clearly states: "you must follow the directions to log it online".

There is nothing vague in the description.

Word "Challenge" appears in the title.

I suppose that HQ allows this grandfathered ALR.

OK - the example you gave (GC3DD4E) has been downvoted as a majority which I would hope does not give it challenge status on PGC
I have always considered all challenge caches must involve finding at least one other cache and can not include the challenge cache itself
I downvoted it because all the CO is getting you to do is write a longer log on this cache - there are no other caches involved - so in my mind this is not a challenge.

It could also be argued that in order to claim a find online you must fulfil the criteria prior to logging the find cache - this one can only be achieved after you have logged the find !!

Yes, as an older cache it is grandfathered, we as a group can not get grandfathered caches archived if they do not comply with the current guidelines. Any new challenges that clearly don't comply do get archived if the issue is raised with the reviewer

but I believe as this cache (GC3DD4E) as an example is on the exception list and has been downvoted, it will NOT appear on the lists in the challenge tab and so does not count towards a challenge cache total on PGC (I hope anyway)

Deepdiggingmole Wrote:
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> I have always considered all challenge caches must
> involve finding at least one other cache and can
> not include the challenge cache itself

We have genuine challenges for souvenirs and trackables. No finds required.

This case is simple. The result depends on what expectations we put on the challenge cache. Are we voting about about definitions instead of how they are implemented in the cache? That is my concern.

arisoft Wrote:

"We have genuine challenges for souvenirs and trackables. No finds required."

I would argue that finds are required even for the above two examples

To get souvenirs, caches have to be found or events attended prior to the souvenirs being awarded
To get trackables caches are found or events attended in order for the trackables being picked up / discovered

Deepdiggingmole Wrote:
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> To get trackables caches are found or events
> attended in order for the trackables being picked
> up / discovered

To drop a trackable in a cache you have to find a cache but discovering or grabbing a trackable you need only the trackable itself.

The requirement that a challenge must strictly be based on finds appeared later into guidelines. When this example cache was published, the cache owner and reviewer must have considered it as a challenge cache. The question is, should we respect their opinion when making a decision about this matter?

Trackables are no longer an issue because these challenges are not allowed anymore

Souvernirs are awards and receive then you have to attend an event or find a cache in order to receive one.
A challenge where you have to own 10 country sounenirs means the same as caching in 10 countries which give out souvenirs etc. In fact some challenges are based on the PGC list of souvenirs

vogelbird Wrote:
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Souvenirs are awards and receive then you have to attend an event or find a cache in order to receive one.

but you said No finds required Yes, they are awards, but in order to get them you have to have found caches

I was just showing the difference with the written log challenge - with that one no other caches have to be found, but with souvenir challenges and trackables other caches do have to be found

Deepdiggingmole Wrote:
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> I was just showing the difference with the written
> log challenge - with that one no other caches have
> to be found, but with souvenir challenges and
> trackables other caches do have to be found

There may exist also waymarking challenges.

We have genuine challenges for souvenirs and trackables. No finds required.

Made me smile - as of course we now know that you DONT have to find caches to discover trackables - just cheat and download all those codes !!!!!!