Re: Please, block cloning of tags on non-complying checkers

This is one of the pain-points from reviewer perspective:
Players often search for cool challenges, cloning the old tags without knowledge of V2 guidelines after moratorium. It would be helpful to block cloning of the tags on those V1 scripts.
If you have better idea, please, let me know.

This would be much appreciated from the reviewer community!

Having no idea how hard/easy this is to set up from Project-GCs perspective so this might be something that is not needed, but if it is hard because it can not be done automatically in an easy way I would suggest something like the voting system for the list of challenge checker exceptions and giving all the reviewers voting access in that system.

To be effective, the system should prevent cloning only tags which are against current rules. Many old challenges are still possible.

So, you are actually requesting a blacklist of tags (= GC-codes) not allowed to clone. If such a list exists it should be easy to implement, I think.

Blacklist of tags (GC codes) would be very very long. If possible, I don't mind, but that's not what I'm asking for.

I'm asking for option for the scriptwriter (author of the script) to disable tagging and/or cloning the tags on his script. Example - I'm author of several scripts and I don't want random people to clone individual tags, because they are not complying v2 guidelines. Such users are only creating unnecessary workload for themselves and for other people - because they are enabled to do so.

In theory, it is possible to clone some old tag to another old challenge without breaking V2 rules.

It could be possible to limit cloning between different rules. If the cloned tag is made for V1 cache it is allowed to clone only to V1 caches. If the tag is made for V2 cache there is no limits.

In practice, almost every script which is compatible with V2 rules has already been used for V2 challenges so there should be no problems to find a suitable one.

At least, the cloning tool could warn before V1 tag is cloned to V2 cache. This could be made without side effects and no database is required.

It goes further than that. There's V2a (Jan 2019) and V2b (Nov 2019) to deal with too. So those dates will have to be taken into account too.

I agree with arisoft's suggestion to simply display a warning.

Determining whether a challenge is V1/V2 compatible automatically is pretty much impossible. I also think not allowing cloning on scripts is the way to go since many scripts can produce tags that may or may not be allowed with V2 (e.g. general regex checkers or muli-test checkers). Plus, as ari already mentioned, people might want to tag/clone to create a checker for grandfathered challenges.

I don't think distinguishing between V2a and V2b is really necessary as the rules didn't change too much. In the end I imagine most challenge requests that reviewers have to decline are challenges based on time-limited criteria, owner/cache names and areas that are not CRC. I wouldn't think there are too many cloned tags that get declined because of the Jan/Nov'19 changes. Ultimately, the goal should not be a perfect system but one that is simple but yet reduces unnecessary workload for reviewers.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 12/11/2019 11:58PM by PattuX. (view changes)

This is an issue that has been noted many times and there are reviewers who look at a challenge and see that as it has a checker it must be OK and comply with current rules and go ahead and publish, only to find that the checker was cloned from an older challenge - and as a result, when this is pointed out the reviewer has no option but to archive.
I acknowledge the hard job reviewers have and the critisism they get is often uncalled for. It is possible, if you know how, to see if a checker was cloned or has been requested from new but many reviewers do not look into them that far, if any at all.

I know of reviewers who think that PGC and they are two separate entities and they both have their separate roles, which in the main is true, but when it comes to questioning the validity of challenge caches there is just as much, if not, more experience among PGC people, and it has been evident that reviewers sometimes get it wrong and someone from PGC having pointed it out - but the person that gives the grief is the CO. The unfounded angst is sometimes directed towards PGC and not just reviewers.
I think if the reviewers and PGC work more closely - possibly create a specific forum group (much like the exceptions list forum where only certain people have commenting access) then any queries by reviewers regarding the challenge or the checker can be asked there and the matter resolved before publication.

Deepdiggingmole Wrote:
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> I think if the reviewers and PGC work more closely
> - possibly create a specific forum group (much
> like the exceptions list forum where only certain
> people have commenting access) then any queries by
> reviewers regarding the challenge or the checker
> can be asked there and the matter resolved before
> publication.

Whatever way I consider actions to improve this process, I see one big issue. There are plenty of undisclosed guidelines that voluntary challenge checker authors or cache owners don't know. I suppose that HQ will not allow public disclosure of such information. Until this issue is solved, there is no guarantee that challenges with a checker can be published even when a voluntary challenge checker author has verified that it follows publicly available guidelines.

Well, a reviewer/scriptwriters-forum is not a bad idea, but I dont think it have that much to do with the actual topic.

The topic posted by Rikitan is a sugesstion to block cloning of old non-complying challengecheckers, something that would be greatly appreciated from the reviewercommunity. Sure, the sugessted forum would also be a nice "tool" to have so to speak, but it would in no way have the same effect since it would do absolutely zero in the area of me having to review challengecaches that the scriptwriters never got the chance to deny since somebody just cloned an old challenge that most people know is against the current guidelines. :)

I was referring to a scriptwriter / reviewer / moderator forum.
A lot of challenge caches get looked at and reviewed by moderators - it was as a result of moderators reviewing challenges that it was discovered that several didn't comply with new guidelines - yet because they had a checker (which turned out to be cloned) it was obvious the reviewer was happy to publish. That is down to the reviewer not being completely au fait with how checkers can be achieved (cloned or created from new)

Well, a forum still does nothing for helping with the problem that cachers clone non-complying checkers without ever asking in the forum or talking to a moderator or scriptwriter, right? So it does not solve the problem that this thread is about... :)

You are right. This is another problem caused by cache owners, not by anyone else in the chain.

There is already discussion between reviewers and challenge checker authors or moderators and here we are talking with each others in this forum. (:P)

Well, that depends on what you feel that the problem is. If the challenge get published, its of course multiple people that caused that to happen. If I have to review and deny something that is clearly not allowed under the public guidelines because CO didnt bother to read them and just cloned something they think sounded cool, well... I dont feel that I as a revier could have done anything to avoid that situation really....

For example:

This challenge could not be published today since it has two conditions that are very clear in the guidelines as not okay: https://project-gc.com/Challenges/GC13JHC/2339

Its a big red no on: "These cache page elements: cache titles, cache owner, GC Codes, publishing Reviewer, or cache page text." and "Restrictions on date of finds used for the challenge are not permitted." in the public guidelines: https://www.geocaching.com/help/index.php?pg=kb.chapter&id=127&pgid=206.

Yet I can clone this challenge checker and send the challenge in for review right now if I want to, without asking anybody in any forum whatsoever. So forum does absolutely nothing for solving the problem of me, as a reviewer, getting challenges like this in my queue. And trust me, people do this.

Matoran_Balta Wrote:
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Yet I can clone this challenge checker and send the challenge in for review right now if I want to, without asking anybody in any forum whatsoever. So forum does absolutely nothing for solving the problem of me, as a reviewer, getting challenges like this in my queue. And trust me, people do this.

I do not dispute this - I have written to several reviewers who have been fooled by this. I was just suggesting a means by which all the different groups can discuss.

An other solution I could see, but that will bring more work to the volunteer scriptwriters, is of course to only let them clone tags of challenges and no other users. I dont really think it is a good solution, but it is something that would be very effective atleast.

Matoran_Balta Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Yet I can clone this challenge checker and send
> the challenge in for review right now if I want
> to, without asking anybody in any forum
> whatsoever. So forum does absolutely nothing for
> solving the problem of me, as a reviewer, getting
> challenges like this in my queue. And trust me,
> people do this.

I truly believe you. Everybody participating this thread believes you.

Matoran_Balta Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> An other solution I could see, but that will bring
> more work to the volunteer scriptwriters, is of
> course to only let them clone tags of challenges
> and no other users. I dont really think it is a
> good solution, but it is something that would be
> very effective atleast.

I just thought the same solution. It effectively increase workload for PGC side and decrease workload on GS side. The problem is that cache owners do not read instructions. My suggestion was to inform cache owner when cloning a chellenge checker but it may be too late. Whatever we do, someone must tell to the CO the there are rules that must be obeyed.