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Re: GC6Y3A5 yellow belt challenge (30+ points) new checker needed

[Resolved] GC6Y3A5 yellow belt challenge (30+ points) new checker needed
December 13, 2016 10:50AM
Dear challenge checker team,

having achieved my yellow geocaching belt, I thought I would like to share the experience with other newbie cachers and encourage them to learn more about geocaching. Thus I have created a new challenge cache, GC6Y3A5 https://coord.info/GC6Y3A5

The challenge is very simple: Achieve 30 or more points and earn your yellow belt. Just as a recommendation, not a logging prerequisite, I suggested completing the challenge within your first 400 finds. The rest of the listing text explains why I think belts are neat (they bring you on the road to becoming a well-rounded cacher) and how the points are calculated (copy/paste of PGC's German explanation).

Could you please design a challenge checker that verifies if a user has 30+ points and is thus a yellow (or higher) belt holder?

Thank you very much in advance!
Best wishes,

Stefan / famlangerws
Re: GC6Y3A5 yellow belt challenge (30+ points) new checker needed
December 13, 2016 10:57AM
I doubt that you will get it published.
There are two problem. One is that the rules has to be on the gc.com page and not be to complicated. A referal to the badegen/pgc website is not enough.
The other problem is that you get badges/points for thing that are not allowed in the guidelines for challenges. Like log length, FTF etc. All ways to complete a challenge has to be according to the guidelines
Re: GC6Y3A5 yellow belt challenge (30+ points) new checker needed
December 13, 2016 11:11AM
First of all, thanks for the quick reply!

Concerning your feedback: I know that you mustn't purely rely on external software so I said in the listing text that users can also send me their geocaching.com stats and point out how they earned their 30 points. That's not a one click solution but shouldn't take too long either.
It's a bit strange that Groundspeak requires a challenge checker on PGC but does not allow PGC as a tool to prove you have completed the challenge.

The challenge can be solved without FTFs; they merely help. There is an identical challenge here:
https://coord.info/GC59KN3 which was published less than 2 years ago. For that reason I hoped that the reviewers would allow a copy in a different region.

I know it's probably quite a lot of work to implement the checker; but please give me the chance to get this into the reviewing stage. For that I need a checker, otherwise the listing will never have the chance to be reviewed.

Thank you, and best wishes!

Stefan
Re: GC6Y3A5 yellow belt challenge (30+ points) new checker needed
December 13, 2016 11:19AM
Re: There is an identical challenge here: https://coord.info/GC59KN3

This challenge was tagged by me before the new guidelines in 2016 cam in place.

At this moment the guidelines are more strict but if you want to try here is the checker
http://project-gc.com/Challenges/GC6Y3A5/23842
Re: GC6Y3A5 yellow belt challenge (30+ points) new checker needed
December 13, 2016 11:58AM
Thank you very much indeed! Fingers crossed...(tu)

Edit: Just tried the checker myself and got this error message:


Array
(
[lineNo] => 98
[error] => attempt to concatenate local 'beltLevel' (a nil value)
)

Got profile name, famlangerws

Is that to be expected because the cache is not online yet, or could you fix that please?

Thanks!

Stefan



Edited 2 time(s). Last edit at 12/13/2016 12:02PM by famlangerws. (view changes)
Re: GC6Y3A5 yellow belt challenge (30+ points) new checker needed
December 13, 2016 12:43PM
It looks like their is a scripting error somewhere which only the script writer can solve.

When you have a white belt it is working but if you have a yellow belt their is a script failure.
With higher vulue it is working again
Re: GC6Y3A5 yellow belt challenge (30+ points) new checker needed
December 13, 2016 12:52PM
Thanks again for looking into this. Should I contact the script writer (his name is target, right?) myself, or how does that work?

Interestingly, the numbers on the banner are working OK, as it seems. The count goes up, anyway.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 12/13/2016 12:54PM by famlangerws. (view changes)
Re: GC6Y3A5 yellow belt challenge (30+ points) new checker needed
December 13, 2016 12:56PM
I have already contacted him
Re: GC6Y3A5 yellow belt challenge (30+ points) new checker needed
December 13, 2016 05:09PM
Had a bug when the belt number was below 10 but it is not fix

About the challenge.
Quote

Concerning your feedback: I know that you mustn't purely rely on external software so I said in the listing text that users can also send me their geocaching.com stats and point out how they earned their 30 points. That's not a one click solution but shouldn't take too long either.
It's a bit strange that Groundspeak requires a challenge checker on PGC but does not allow PGC as a tool to prove you have completed the challenge.
You need all rules for the challenge on gc.com and it has to be "must be verifiable through information on Geocaching.com." IE the rules has to be on that website and all information the validate.
Is is a requirement that:
"the cache has a checker"
not
"The findes has to use a checker"
You should be able to find out if you are qualified without using pgc,

Quote

The challenge can be solved without FTFs; they merely help. There is an identical challenge here:
https://coord.info/GC59KN3 which was published less than 2 years ago. For that reason I hoped that the reviewers would allow a copy in a different region.
That a similar challenge was published before the new guidelines is irrelevant. A challenge published with the new guideline can be relevant for complains about inkonsistens. But notice that the guidelines has been updated
What is relevant is if your challenge is according to the current rules

I submitted a black belt challenge when they were reintroduced and it was rejected.
The reason is that all ways to pass a challenge has to be according to the guidelines.
The is more problem than the FTF. Have list all below but i can have missed some.
If you rewrite the allowed belt and badges to be in the cache listing notice the following guideline

"The challenge requirements should be simple, and easy to explain, follow and document. A long list of rules or restrictions may prevent publication."

The following are against the guidelines 7/18 if a count correctly
  • 10 points per 50 caches found on day with most finds, maximum of 40 points
  • 2 points per distinct cache type on day with most distinct types found
  • 0.5 points per FTF, maximum of 30 points
  • 1 point per gemstone badge (excluding country badges)
  • 2 points for every year since your first cache find
  • 0.05 points per trackable moved/discovered (maximum 25 points)
  • 0.1 points per photo uploaded to found logs (maximum 25 points)

The following badges are against the guidelines. (only badegs avalible on pgc is included. The non included would also not be allowed
  • The Coin Collector
  • The Travel Bug
  • The Long-Distance Cacher
  • The Caching Veteran
  • The Busy Cacher
  • The Shutterbug
  • The Author
  • The FTF Addict
  • The Diverse Cacher

But feel free to send the cache to the rewiver for a official response



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 12/13/2016 05:10PM by Target.. (view changes)
Re: GC6Y3A5 yellow belt challenge (30+ points) new checker needed
December 13, 2016 07:36PM
Hi Target,

thank you very much for implementing the checker and pointing out the list of problems. I understand your arguments, but I hope you have also seen my motivation for writing the listing; i.e. getting newbie cachers interested in well-rounded caching, not just sucking up powertrails and leaving one-word logs.
Maybe I'm lucky with a lenient reviewer, maybe not.

Thanks for all the good work at Project GC! Best wishes,

Stefan / famlangerws
Re: GC6Y3A5 yellow belt challenge (30+ points) new checker needed
December 13, 2016 09:26PM
My only argument is that is is against the guidelines and you likely cant do a challenge like the even with you own rules

I like the belts and badges except the author badge.
There is a reason i tried to publish one myself.
Feel free to test with a reviewer but you will likely not get i published

You could do something similar.
Make a list of different requirement like the one for belts and require for example 5 of the 10 to be fulfilld. I dont think there exist skripts for different points.
That is easy to create a checker for

Or do a trail of challenges with different requirements
Re: GC6Y3A5 yellow belt challenge (30+ points) new checker needed
December 14, 2016 01:21AM
(I'm a Reviewer, based in the USA.)

As usual, Target's analysis is both correct and thorough. You should take his advice.

It makes me sad that you'd rather roll the dice and hope for a lenient cache reviewer. You are testing the system to see if your reviewer makes a mistake. Once that mistake is exposed (when your cache is published), your challenge cache will be archived and your reviewer will get a lesson from headquarters.

It's very important for all challenge caches worldwide to follow the same simple set of guidelines. That's one of the reasons why the 2016 guidelines are quite limiting. Under the old guidelines that were more subjective, when a reviewer in Country A says "no" to a challenge, but then finds out that the same challenge is published in Country B, it subjects the Country A reviewer to criticism for being too strict, and it subjects all reviewers to criticism for being inconsistent.

If you want to construct a challenge cache that encourages newbie cachers to stretch their boundaries, pick a number of requirements that would direct them away from traditional park and grabs. Example: Find 25 multicaches, 25 letterboxes, 25 earthcaches, 25 large size caches, AND 25 caches rated T3 or higher.
Re: GC6Y3A5 yellow belt challenge (30+ points) new checker needed
December 14, 2016 01:22AM
You could make a simple but related challenge and add an Unchallenge to it.

https://www.geocaching.com/geocache/GC61AYB_bcs-nrhp-kern-county-unchallenge
Re: GC6Y3A5 yellow belt challenge (30+ points) new checker needed
December 14, 2016 01:51AM
Possibly, but such an "unchallenge" cannot have a Project-GC checker associated with it. (Well, it could, but your reviewer wouldn't publish it.)
Re: GC6Y3A5 yellow belt challenge (30+ points) new checker needed
December 14, 2016 02:10AM
An unchallenge would be a way to introduce the well rounded cacher idea to those who might wish a personal challenge not allowed by GC. Strivers would have to do their own bookkeeping to determine eligibility, but this is not a new thing. Once done, a logged note could document the achievement.

I doubt that project-gc would be interested but I can fantasize about better supported Unchallenges with new URLs like

http://project-gc.com/UnChallenges/GCxxxxxx/yyyyy

The only difference from current challenges is that the unchallenge would be in the description of a simpler acceptable challenge which would have to have a normal checker. Unchallenge checkers would be built just like normal checkers but could use checks not allowed by GC challenge rules. The base challenge would have to be qualified before the associated Unchallenge could be claimed. Claiming would be done by writing a log note showing the output of the Unchallenge checker.
Re: GC6Y3A5 yellow belt challenge (30+ points) new checker needed
December 14, 2016 08:06AM
Good morning everyone,

wow - I never guessed that this little challenge would cause such a stir! Thank you very much for giving me constructive feedback; there is a lot of learning involved for me here.
If you feel that I have taken up enough of your time, I can perfectly understand you and won't expect you to read the lengthy post below. You have given me good ideas what to do. An honest thank you for your support!

I have done quite a lot of reading, especially the challenge regulations and the reasons for and changes after the moratorium. As I understand it, the moratorium came along because people a) designed (near-) impossible challenges and b) appealed a lot to Groundspeak when reviewers disallowed the cache.
The main points of criticism with my challenge is c) it is not easily verifiable through Groundspeak data only and d) points are awarded for things like FTFs, log length and number of uploaded pictures. Finally e) I might get my reviewer into trouble with Headquarters.
There was f) a suggestion to make a list of easier-to-verify criteria and g) the idea of an un-challenge.

Please let me reply to these points:

a) It's quite easy to meet the challenge criteria, so no worries there.

b) I promise not to appeal if my reviewer disallows the cache. A no is a no, and I am fine with that.
However, there is a reason why reviewers are locally assigned, and that's not only a language issue. Within every possible set of rules in any kind of system you have a bit of "play" or variance, even more so with a global game like geocaching. I have come a across some pretty ludicrous caches (challenges, mysteries, traditionals etc) where one might raise all kinds of objections because they are well outside the Groundspeak rules. As long as those caches don't physically endanger the cacher or harm the game or geocaching's reputation, I will not complain about them, just ignore them. Both the cache owner and the reviewer thought the cache was a good (or OK) idea, and I am not forced to log the cache. That's the reason I still went along with submitting the cache to the reviewing process.

c) and d) There are only four criteria which cannot be calculated from the official geocaching.com public profile page: Different cache types in one day (the user could supply the data, though, and it would be verifiable through his finds list); FTFs (not recognized by Groundspeak); gemstone badges; photo uploads with found-logs (because the gallery may contain pictures for DNFs etc.). All the other information (and I checked this thoroughly) can be obtained by looking at just four different pages in your profile: Statistics, geocache hides, geochache finds and trackables.
The challenge is a bit harder to meet if you discount the four items I mentioned, but it is still not a problem. In my own case, I got 40.89 PGC points, but only 24.59 points from Groundspeak - so I wouldn't qualify for my own challenge yet. However, it would only be a matter of weeks until I did. So in my eyes, it's still a valid challenge.

e) The very last thing I want is getting my reviewer into trouble. I know they are volunteers who sacrifice a lot of their precious time to upkeeping the game's standards, keeping it safe and fun for all of us. I am, however, not trying to trick him/her into doing something that might harm him/herself. The reviewer has loads of experience and should know a lot more about challenges than I do. If he/she approves of my challenge, there will be a reason for it. If the challenge is disallowed, I am fine with that - see b).

f) The reason why I like the belts so much is because there are so many very different ways of obtaining one. If I went along with The Leprechauns' suggestion I would exclude e.g. wheelchair users. I deliberately wanted to have a challenge that everyone could meet, one way or the other, and that gives you an insight in all geocaching-related activities. Writing nice logs, posting pretty pictures and moving trackables is important to me and lots of other cachers. Others might like mysteries, climbing or scuba-diving, others travel a lot. So I wanted to keep it as open as possible, and that's what the belts do.

g) An UnChallenge is a very nice idea - a bit tongue-in-cheek, actually. That is definitely a very good option for me. I didn't realize something like that was possible or appreciated by Groundspeak or the reviewers. Thank you, rragan, for bringing that one up! I will post another reviewer note and ask my reviewer about that option right away.
Actually I only included the challenge checker because (as you know) it is a new Groundspeak prerequisite for submitting challenges. The belt is so straightforward that you don't need a checker - a simple screenshot would do fine.

Summing up, I am very grateful for your feedback, and deeply impressed with the amount of energy and thought all of you invest in the game. I have learned a lot from this and I was given a good option how I can go ahead from here. Another thank you for reading my lengthy thoughts on the issue.

Have a nice day, best wishes,

famlangerws
Re: GC6Y3A5 yellow belt challenge (30+ points) new checker needed
December 14, 2016 03:29PM
On A the main fix is that demand that the CO and a number of other cachers meet the requirement fix problems with hard challenges

Quote

c) and d) There are only four criteria which cannot be calculated from the official geocaching.com public profile page: Different cache types in one day (the user could supply the data, though, and it would be verifiable through his finds list); FTFs (not recognized by Groundspeak); gemstone badges; photo uploads with found-logs (because the gallery may contain pictures for DNFs etc.). All the other information (and I checked this thoroughly) can be obtained by looking at just four different pages in your profile: Statistics, geocache hides, geochache finds and trackables.
The challenge is a bit harder to meet if you discount the four items I mentioned, but it is still not a problem. In my own case, I got 40.89 PGC points, but only 24.59 points from Groundspeak - so I wouldn't qualify for my own challenge yet. However, it would only be a matter of weeks until I did. So in my eyes, it's still a valid challenge

The problem is not that they cant be verified with data available on gc.com all (except one) of them can be validated on gc.com. But it is hard works in som cases.
The problem it is that they are forbidden in the guidelines.
FTF, traceables, log length and in a day is explicitly forbidden.
Images are implicitly forbidden from that the contains of logs cant be used.
Long distance from the privacy requirement. That is the only one that cant in all cases be verified on gc.com since home coordinates is not public and the found by distance does not have the correct intervall.
FTF is kind of recognized by groundspeek. They use it in advertisement for premium membership and notifications.

What it missing is that the requirement for belts and badges has to be on gc.com
If you add all belt/badges rules i suspect you will get a problem with the following guideline
"The challenge requirements should be simple, and easy to explain, follow and document. A long list of rules or restrictions may prevent publication."
That is was were sad by my reliever when we talked about my challenge. But you could do that with a subset of the requirements


On F i disagree with "Writing nice logs, posting pretty pictures" The result is often using long identical text on multiple caches that are quire meaningless and do not write anything about the cache. As a CO i prefere short logs instead of long copy and paste
And multiple picture post that are quite meaningless. The picture part is less common and have when it is not an average images is people stop posting new when they meet the requirement
And the scuba badge does not exist on pgc since only using the attribut does not work because of som trails.

On G It is not necessary to have a high T unchallenge. Do it as a T1 mystery and have the coordinates in the text so people have to read it and dont find the cache by mistake.

I suspect that a good way to get people to be diverse cachers is to introduce them the the stats and badges on pgc.
Do a challenge that get people to notice them.
Write about the bades and belts with som images and links and choose one or a few requirement to do a challenge on.

But remember you have to meet the requirement.
Re: GC6Y3A5 yellow belt challenge (30+ points) new checker needed
December 14, 2016 04:25PM
Hello Target,

very good idea to make a mystery out of belts and badges, that will make people learn about them! I will definitely take that idea on board. (tu)
Where can I find those precise guidelines? Is that something only reviewers see, or did I overlook something?
BTW, with "nice logs and pictures" I meant the exact opposite of what you described. I upload only pictures I took myself during the hunt; and I despise those copy&paste logs, I always write fresh text. It would be cool if PGC combined log length AND log text similarity count (mine is only 33%, I think that's pretty good) to award the Author badge. I can understand people using copy & paste logs on powertrails, though, provided they also write a few words about each cache.

Best wishes,

famlangerws
Re: GC6Y3A5 yellow belt challenge (30+ points) new checker needed
December 14, 2016 05:06PM
They are in the help center for the "Geocache Listing Requirements / Guidelines" that is linked to from the "Hide a Geocache" webpage
https://support.groundspeak.com/index.php?pg=kb.page&id=206
I assume you have read the since you have to check the box "I have read and agree to the Terms of Use Agreement and the Cache Listing Requirements Guidelines." when creating a cache.
I Google for challenge guidelines to go to the page
Some detail of the interpretation of the guidelines is from this forum.
I assume there are non public informations for reviewers from rejections of challenges that say that cant be published according to HQ but it is often how a guideline should be interpreted.
But some like the jasmer challenge with more then one found per month is not allowed is not has not obvious guideline that disallow it.

Yes i understand what "nice logs and pictures" is. But in practice i see mostly long meaningless logs that i assume is for stats/challenges. The picture part is not as common.
The bade dont promote good logs but long logs that is easiest to do with copy&paste

I must admit i did the same with long copy and paste logs to get the badge. There is one mitigating circumstance that it was on a power trail will 500+ almost identical finds in a day. I assume that the COs filter those logs and don't look at them. 280 000 find in 3 years and 7 CO will result in filtering.
Re: GC6Y3A5 yellow belt challenge (30+ points) new checker needed
December 14, 2016 05:22PM
Hi Target,

that's the page I read. Re-reading it, the only explicitly disallowed item I can find is trackable logs. But one is enough to blow the challenge, I can see that.
280.000 finds? Amazing! I don't think any real log reviewing takes place there. Anyway that's why I think that the diversity of the log texts should be taken into account for the Author badge (e.g. if more than 50% of the texts are identical you don't qualify for the badge). But I guess someone would write a text randomizing app to cheat that, too...
Anyway, we're definitely on the same page here.

Best wishes,

famlangerws
Re: GC6Y3A5 yellow belt challenge (30+ points) new checker needed
December 14, 2016 06:53PM
Then i will show what you missed

>10 points per 50 caches found on day with most finds, maximum of 40 points
>2 points per distinct cache type on day with most distinct types found
Both is 9. Time-Limited "Time-limited caching: as in some number of finds per day, week, month, or year. Example, Busy Day, 50 finds in a day, 500 finds in a month, etc. (new 2016)"

>0.5 points per FTF, maximum of 30 points
14. Positive Challenge Criteria "Competition rather than achievement; example, a challenge based on "First to Finds" is a competition."

>2 points for every year since your first cache find
8. Attainable "Requiring caches to be found in earlier years, as it is not attainable by someone new to the game."

>0.05 points per trackable moved/discovered (maximum 25 points)
As you found 10. Source of CriteriaTrackable, Benchmarking, Waymarking logs, or specifying Lab Cache finds. (new 2016)

>0.1 points per photo uploaded to found logs (maximum 25 points)
10. Source of Criteria possitive "Challenge cache criteria must be based upon the type of log, not on the log content."
That is the implicit one

1 point per gemstone badge (excluding country badges)

>The Coin Collector
>The Travel Bug
>The Caching Veteran
>The Busy Cacher
>The Shutterbug
>The Diverse Cacher
>The FTF Addict
The same as above

>The Long-Distance Cacher
6. Verification "Challenge owners will need to make sure that cachers can show that they have completed the cache requirements without compromising their privacy." home coordinates cant be used


>The Author
same as photos but explicit 10. Source of Criteria positive "Challenge cache criteria must be based upon the type of log, not on the log content."

Text diversity in a better measurement that is harder to cheat. The problem is that the author badge already exist.
and pgc have not created any badges by is self. It is the same as the GSAK script except the missing badges for technical reasons.
Re: GC6Y3A5 yellow belt challenge (30+ points) new checker needed
December 15, 2016 11:29AM
Hi Target,

now I see what you mean and understand why it is forbidden. My idea was that you are not forced to log "busy days", but I hadn't understood that even having the option to log "busy days" is against the rules. OK, clear.

In the meantime a reviewer had a look at the cache and disallowed it, as expected. He also said that Groundspeak doesn't allow UnChallenges, so unfortunately that is not an option, either.

I will go with your last suggestion and make a normal mystery cache about that topic, which covers about 90% of my original idea of getting people interested in the belts and badges system. People will have to decide for themselves if they want to cache that way, which might even yield better results in the long run.

Thanks again, and best wishes!

famlangerws
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