Putting your arms up at a webcam cache

Question

My question is in red below - bit of a pre-amble to it though 

I have been caching for over 13 years and have always tried to adhere to the 'proof of presence' principle -
GS do have this as one of their fundamental rules when it comes to physical caches -
Rule 2 . Write about your find in the cache logbook.
When it comes to webcam caches - there is no log to sign but you are standing in front of a camera - except that more often that not you are so far away you would not recognise yourself let alone anyone recognise you. 
So... how to prove you were there - do something slightly different to what everyone else (if its crowded) around you is doing - like stick your hands up in the air. Now you can be singled out as the cacher among muggles !! 
So... having established a way of enabling 'proof of presence' - would asking for this as a requirement for a webcam cache be considered an 'ALR' (additional logging requirement) or just an acceptable means by which you can prove you were at the location rather than just having taken a screenshot of a webcam image and saying you were there (akin to forgetting your pen but saying you were there anyway)

Tim 

Answer 1

I'd argue that webcams are grandfathered under the old rules, and were published before the ALR rule came into place and as such they are allowed ALRs. That sidesteps the question whether standing in a particular place/pose counts as an ALR for a webcam.

Personally I think it is perfectly reasonable to expect people to do something distinctive (either where they stand or how they stand) and in fact here is me sticking my hands up doing as ​instructed:

 

The only complaint I have about it is that trying to view/capture the picture on a phone whilst waving isn't always the easiest!

Comments

I have never had an issue with putting one arm up if the other is trying to get the image on the phone - however it can be done easily as most webcams have a 30 sec to 1 min refresh so if you are with phone in hand in the air looking at the screen, once it refreshes you can take both your hands down and do the saving bit knowing you have 30 secs to a minute to work the phone which would be easier with both anyway ;-) - though one hand up has never been rejected

Answer 2

To me the request to make yourself distinguishable should not be considered an ALR as per para 4.3 of the GS rules since this is related to physical caches, and thus the request should be allowed. I would agree it does make sense in a crowded place while on the other hand it should not be overdone - people will wonder what you are doing when waving your flag for 5 min (and I do know webcams that update less often), and one should still be able to save the screenshot on the mobile. Proofs I have used was a second photo showing the guy in the blue shirt is indeed me, holding up a lamp, and pretending to do some yoga (which was fun...)

Comments

Some Webcams - Leeds for example, many add an additional photo taken close up because the webcam image just has you as a pixel on the screen (slight exaggeration, but you know what I mean) so it is nice to have a pic where you can be recognised

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I don't see any reason why you should have to be able to save the screenshot on your phone. When webcams were made, the point was to get someone back home to save the photo of you :) I don't say you have to get someone back home to do the work, but you shouldn't be surprised if it's sometimes hard to save the picture from your phone. Some webcams can't even be accessed from a phone (requires heavy java applets, flash etc).

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Hi - just to clarify - I haven't made an issue of whether you should save screenshots to phones - nor indeed with either of my webcams do I make it a requirement - both still have the original instructions around calling someone who has access to the internet, and in fact the better results come from that process - however as time went on, and it became possible to get the image yourself at the location this was added as an option.
I am not surprised that some say they can get internet access due to provider access, access restriction (people on holiday from abroad) or that their phone has restrictions so that they cant access the image - however that should not prevent them from going with the first option of contacting someone. If they are unable to do either then log a DNF ;-)  - No different to getting to a cache and finding it is 50 ft up a tree and you dont have any rope.
My original OP was more to do with the arms in the air thing being classified as an ALR

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My comment was directed at the answer from @Domino_67, specifically this part: "and one should still be able to save the screenshot on the mobile" :)

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Ah - I read that differently - I read it that he was not making a statement about having to use the phone as the only means to record your visit - more that it was with regard to having your arms in the air ..and.. still being able to save the screenshot on your phone (while your arms are in the air)

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You might be correct, I could have read that wrong.

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I apologise if I have created confusion here. Indeed, in the old days, the only way to take a webcam picture was to call someone at home (and I also agree with Deepdiggingmole that in four cases out of five, the better results are achieved this way) while today I would consider it a legitimate wish to also be able to do all of that yourself (ie with a smartphone). However that was only meant to be a side remark and my main point was to express that in my opinion, the request to make yourself distinguishable in some manner is justified (and not an ALR). This request should remain reasonable of course and leaving some options for the visitor while standing at a specific spot can certainly be asked.

Answer 3

I think there is no problem to ask for an ALR in case of webcams. There are only a few webcamcaches and it would be great to survive them.

Answer 4

It's not so much an "Additional Logging Requirement," as it is a logging requirement.

"Additional Logging Requirement" meant a task undertaken in addition to signing the paper log on a physical cache.  For example, at our cache GC1G6JE, we required finders to not only find the cache and sign the log, but also post a photo of the hotel construction nearby.

Although some have been changed to higher resolution webcams, most webcams relied on technology from 2005 or earlier -- meaning low resolution.  Add to that, many webcams were wide angle views and didn't pick up many details of people.  That made it difficult to distinguish a geocacher from just some guy walking down the street -- and in fact I have seen many examples of webcam photos that were likely not of the geocacher but just some random passerby.

Hence, the requirement to do something special to log.  It's no different than a virtual cache requiring a particular photo.  You can blame the armchair loggers, who also helped ruin many a virtual cache.

Waving's not even that bad.  Some require signs, or even doing the phoon, like GCNHA5.  Fine for me, but someone in their 70s might not be able to pull much of a phoon off.

Comments

The OP was made because the question had been put to GC themselves and it was them that advised me that asking to put arms in the air was an ALR. So this was GC wording, not mine.
However as has now been noted - they have changed their guidelines so the issue has been resolved

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In addition - I have noted that very few webcam caches do actually require you to put your arms in the air or similar or indeed any action at all - many people do it instinctively even on those that don't require it. Additionally I have been criticised for questioning some loggers who haven't done as mine required despite pointing out to them that they could be anybody in the image

Answer 5

In answer to my own question 
I have only recently discovered some guidelines on the website which have changed and do appear to be a recent change.

As follows :-  (from https://www.geocaching.com/help/index.php?pg=kb.chapter&id=127&pgid=821) 

To log a Webcam Cache, follow these steps:

1. At the posted coordinates, stand within view of the associated webcam.
2. Go to the website that shows the webcam feed. If the webcam is not in service you cannot claim your “find” online.
3. Follow the instructions on the cache page. Sometimes the cache owner will require you to pose in a specific location or in a specific way.
4. Use your phone to capture a screenshot of the webcam image or arrange for a friend to take a screenshot on a computer.
5. To post your log, select the “Webcam Photo Taken” log type and attach your captured webcam image.

Only logs with a screenshot from the webcam feed are acceptable. Logs with photos taken at the location can be deleted by the cache owner.

So - point three seems to have answered this nicely 

Answer 6

 I think it is perfectly reasonable to expect people to do something distinctive, however with more and more Webcam Caches being Archived and no new ones being created due to Grandfathering of that cache type its a mute question.

CURRENT WEBCAM RULES:

To log a Webcam Cache, follow these steps:

1. At the posted coordinates, stand within view of the associated webcam.
2. Go to the website that shows the webcam feed. If the webcam is not in service you cannot claim your “find” online.
3. Follow the instructions on the cache page. Sometimes the cache owner will require you to pose in a specific location or in a specific way.
4. Use your phone to capture a screenshot of the webcam image or arrange for a friend to take a screenshot on a computer.
5. To post your log, select the “Webcam Photo Taken” log type and attach your captured webcam image.

Only logs with a screenshot from the webcam feed are acceptable. Logs with photos taken at the location can be deleted by the cache owner.

Comments

Darksidedan, I have posted exactly this in May and it was noted then that point 3 had been added (it wasn't on the original webcam guidelines) regarding CO requiring specific pose, which answered the OP