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find before publish - when to log, is this a FTF, are there existing rules? [closed]

+1 vote
1,213 views

What happens - or better asked - what should happen if the first find of a new cache occasionally happens before this cache is published?

My questions are:

- When shall this find be logged (I suppose on the day of the find) ?

  • in the logbook of the cache
  • on the listing page of the cache (which is only available AFTER publishing); so this might be a part of the answer to my question
  • as far as I know none of the available apps supports this!

- Is this then a FTF ?

  • ‚Äčis this conform with the geocaching.com rules???

closed with the note: Enough answers, more or less with the same content: a log is a log!
asked Sep 4, 2017 in Support and help by H_M_A (1,660 points)
closed Dec 6, 2017 by H_M_A
In my opinion, the finding can be considered as pre-publication. And the FTF is there, but it's pre-publication. The classic FTF is not

9 Answers

+3 votes
 
Best answer
There are no rules since Geocaching HQ does not even recognize FTF as a part of the sport.

As far as I'm concerned, the first person (or persons, if more than one person find it together) to write in the log is FTF. Whether the cache is published at the time or not is irrelevant. Kudos to people finding caches before having the coordinates to help them!

The find date should be the date the cache was found, of course. It's perfectly possible to set this to a date before publishing using the web interface.
answered Sep 4, 2017 by pinkunicorn (Moderator) (123,260 points)
selected Oct 12, 2017 by H_M_A
Grundspeek have recognized FTF as a part of the game. They have had ads on the page to become premium members to get notification and FTF.

I suspect that it was only the marketing departement and the department that writes guidelins etc was not involved in the decision to promote that
True. But, as you say, there are no guidelines about the concept. I also don't think they feel like trying to introduce any such at this point in time since the local traditions concerning FTFs are rather different in different countries.
0 votes
My feeling is that FTF is the first find after a cache has been published. I had one cache where the log book was signed by several people on placement and I told them that they wouldn't be allowed to claim FTF. I also asked them not to log the find until the FTF was claimed.

As far as the apps supporting dates for logs, c:geo definitely allows you to set the date. And, as pinkunicorn said, the web interface is another method.
answered Sep 5, 2017 by sumbloke (Expert) (30,470 points)
I would agree that if multiple people are there when the cache was place and some of them signs the logbook i would not bee a FTF. Finding a cache before release with inside information would not be ok in my opinion

It is a different case the founder when the finder finds it and had no inside information.

I have hade a cache that was old mansion had been and i took me a week or more before the hiding and the publication. Another cacher found it a few days before when she was planning to hide a cache at the same spot.

I have found few caches in a trail where the CO release one per day and they were 170 meter apart. After the third was release we went there tried to find the rest. Another cacher that had the FTF on #3 had found 2 more unpublished and we found the 3 remaingin caches where the trail took a turn.

The only case I can now think of now where finding a FTF before release without information from the CO is if there is a event with a cache release at a specific time with caches near the event. The information is then public but kind of spoils the event
+1 vote
I won't take the FTF-Thing too serious.

The one who writes his on the first page of the first logbook should claim FTF. It doesn't matter, if the cache has already been published or not.

If someone finds the cache prior to publishing, then he should get the "award", too. And he should log with the date of the find.
answered Sep 5, 2017 by NoobNader (Expert) (15,940 points)
0 votes
In our area, we occasionally have tribute caches placed for some cacher's achievements. The honoree is often allowed to be the first person to find their cache by the CO. This is not considered an FTF but an honorary FTF, not claimed as a regular FTF.  The FTF goes to the post-published finder. Of course, if someone finds a cache legitimately before it actually gets posted, more power to them!!  That is just the way the locals here agree to play.
answered Sep 8, 2017 by Blues Crew (2,090 points)
+1 vote
For me it is clearly a FTF and it should be logged on the day of the find (like beta tester do).
answered Sep 8, 2017 by capsai (580 points)
0 votes
There are simply no rules for this. So in my opinion you can do as you like, or what feels ok. Though I know plenty of people that claim to "know the rules" and try to push them upon others.

One of the main issues we see here is when a new cache is found by a group of geocachers. Some claim that there can only be one (person / team / whatever) that can claim FTF. Then there are people that think that a shared FTF or group FTF is just fine, with each team that was in that group when the cache was found can claim an FTF. Personally I like to go caching with other teams, so I usually choose for the shared FTF. The search for the cache is a group effort anyway, so why not claim it as a group . . .
answered Sep 10, 2017 by NLBokkie (2,520 points)
0 votes
A very good question set here and one of the problems with getting an answer is that there are many different schools of thought and as such you will not get a definitive answer.

My personal opinion is that if you stumble across one while out searching for others and sign it are able to ascertain which it is when published then why not a FTF. -
The reason I say ascertain is that (and this has happened in our area) where several caches are found pre-publication but they were all part of a series of unknown/puzzle caches and so in order to identify which  cache was where, you have to solve the puzzles - it is possible that the puzzle gets solved and subsequently found by another cacher before the 'pre-publication finder' solves the puzzle - that then creates a dilemma as to who is FTF as the first 'solver' can genuinely say they knew which cache it was that they found and were the first to do so.
We have also had situations where cachers have been out with a CO when laying the caches in a series - and then went out immediately after publication and claimed FTF - several were puzzles and multis and LBH (with additional co-ords) but they didn't need to 'solve' any of those as they knew where the 'finals' were  (but that is another story)

As far as when to log - My personal feeling is that the cache doesnt come into 'play' until it is published - so I would say log as dated on the day of publication. What you put on the paper log is up to you.
GS do have a similar vew to this in that they now prevent logging any archived caches - because as far as they are concerned that cache in no longer in play (and I agree with that) and so why doesnt this aliken to caches that are not in play prior to publication :-)
answered Sep 13, 2017 by Deepdiggingmole (3,020 points)
0 votes
Personally i wouldnt claim it as a FTF (unless i also went and got it when it went live). We have not had this situation ourselves but it has happened on a cache my friend technically got FTF after publication and the pre-publication finder said they wernt going to claim the FTF
answered Sep 27, 2017 by NSCR (4,540 points)
0 votes
If you find the container and sign the logbook then it should be counted as in play regardless if it is disabled or unpublished.
answered Dec 5, 2017 by DARKSIDEDAN. (3,630 points)
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