Challenge exceptions

Question

Regarding the checking of this list - it is evident there are some 'disagreements' where some think a cache does fall into the 'challenge cache' category and some don't  - I appreciate there is a the voting process to weed out the 'yes they are' and 'no they are not' - however is there a process by which some of these can be discussed - I have found a handful to date where it would seem I have voted against the flow - I would like to be able to reduce that to zero so will need convincing that said caches do comply or not. Equally I would want to put my view as to why I disagree with the majority.
Though many would probably think this is a futile exercise - it may serve as a helpful guide into understanding what would qualify as a challenge cache and what wouldn't and using examples is helpful

thoughts

Comments

As an example - GC7BWAN - Middle to Locust FTF Power Trail #28 - A Challenge
This 'challenge' requires you to have found at least 25% of the caches along the trail  - this is very specifically linked to the same trail that this cache is found on which would make it no different to a 'bonus' cache

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Also GC1DMWQ - Go The Distance Challenge: The Finish
It says very clearly in the dsecription - "This is a bonus cache for this series" - but the majority have voted this as a challenge cache

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OK - GC27P0F  - J13 Challenge Cache 45 (joce13)
This 'challenge' requires you to find 45 caches (all belonging to the CO)
One of the main rules regarding challenge caches is -
"Challenge cache owners must show that they have met the challenge."
This CO will NOT have been able to do this
This challenge is just a ruse to get cachers to find more of his (or her) own caches

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This example GC7BWAN is not a challenge because it is not allowed under the current guidelines

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GC27P0F is a grandfathered challenge when that rule did not apply

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GC1DMWQ -In the early challenge caches  there are those were yu0 can only log the cache when you have found all the caches (they called it a challenge) contrary to the bonus cache where you do not have to find all the  caches to get the coordinate

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GC1DMWQ is very similar to GC7BWAN (I appreciate one is before and one after moratorium - so please don't respond to that) in that in each of these the CO promotes their own caches - I was always under the impression that with challenge caches the CO was not allowed to require others to find their OWN caches to qualify - thats all

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Regarding GC7BWAN - I agree - however the voting process has shown most have said it IS a challenge ???
Interesting to note that this cache was archived by the CO for the reason "This challenge doesn't meet all the new requirements. Submitting for publication a traditional to replace it right now" and yet the group of moderators reviewing the challenges in the list have said this one does meet the criteria when it obviously doesn't !!!

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In principle I down vote all that are published after the moratorium and should not have been published according to the guidelines

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Exemples  and archied by HQ
GC6NFT4 - Lockpicking Challenge
GC7H86T - Auckland and The Bay Of Plenty Challenge-AKL
but I am voting against the general opinion

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good call - I agree
GC6NFT4 - Lockpicking Challenge has a majority of yes - though when you read the cache page - it was archived because it didn't meet the guidelines !!!

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The initial list was in the checker system as a negative checker and with 800 challenges it took us 2 years to produce this. I am wandering what is happening because it takes time to understand some of the challenges. Are the up and down voters really reading every listing or are they just following the main stream?

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I have been reading many caches over the last few days (I am retired and lots of time on my hands) - yes I have managed to vote on a lot and I have read a great deal - however it is possible to know the status of many just by the title - for example the hundreds of Texas 2018 challenge caches - none are challenge caches so no need to read them all.

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What are the general views on Challenges requiring the finding of waymarks on the waymarking.com site - I had reservations about this as waymarking.com is a DIFFERENT site and there are very few cachers who use the GC.com site who also go on the waymarking.com site - making it a very limited challenge

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Waymarkings are not allowed under the current guidelines but the grandfathered ones are still challeges if stated by the owner of the challenge. However PGC has no information regarding waymarks are have a message in the checker system saving;
This 'Challenge' cache is connected with Waymarking and it cannot be checked by the checker system of PROJECT-GC..

Answer 1

The same happened to me with some other caches.

There is no way to discuss every cache in that list in the comments to this post. There should have been comments directly in the Moderate tab for every cache and a way to reason your votes. Also the description "what is a challenge" is really not clear from that description on that page. Not even for me, but how for the tens new guys who joined in last week?

Should a challenge be something that (can) have a challenge checker? In that case, both of your pointed out challenges should be in this list (if the cache is bonus, it should not have listed coordinates). Or is a challenge something that you need to do something, such as GC3DD4E or GCVWRE which would not qualify based on the new rules and can not be verified by a checker?

For your challenges, I would say both of them are challenges, even though they are pretty simple without any invention. But what about these two I mentioned above?

Comments

I wasn't asking for discussion on every cache on the list - the majority on that list are accepted as either Yes they are or no they are not and no need for discussion - there appears to be a handful (as I said in the OP) where there is a variance of opinion (of the 1000+ so far that I have reviewed only 18 are questionable) - both the cache I mentioned ARE on the list but not everyone agrees about their status.
With regard to a checker - a lot of the challenges being checked are older ones and you can not create checkers for them - but they still fit the criteria.
With regard to the two you mention (in my opinion)
GC3DD4E is not a challenge the requirement is just an ALR, no other caches are involved in this  -
GCVWRE again I do not think a challenge cache - no other caches are involved
Both were hidden before checkers came into being and there are many good challenges that can not use a checker so that is not a reason to say it isn't (though I dont think either are :-) )
With regard to the two I mentioned - I was always under the impression that challenges could not involve specifically named caches -
the first one you have to find several more of the same CO's caches !!
the other is part of a trail which you have to find in order to be able to find this one (i.e its a bonus cache - and even says so )

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Though I agree that a comment box in the moderating section would have been useful

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I noticed, that something similar was already discussed here with reasons why the comment box should not be there:
https://project-gc.com/qa/?qa=18102/is-it-a-challenge-or-not&show=18158#a18158
But the aspect about what is a challenge cache and what not should be really more clear if we want reasonable coverage.

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Making a comment section in the moderating section would in effect be creating another forum which seems way overkill.

As for challenges being something that has a checker: no, that's not valid. It is valid for new challenges being published but it was not when challenges were created. This does not stop challenges that were published under the old rules from being challenges.

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"As for challenges being something that has a checker: no, that's not valid. It is valid for new challenges being published but it was not when challenges were created. This does not stop challenges that were published under the old rules from being challenges."
I already said that ????

Answer 2

For caches that you think have extra interest, you could create discussions here.

Answer 3

One of the biggest places I find trouble deciding can often be resolved by "Are they asking for all, or for some". Eg "Your challenge is to find all the caches in this power trail / area before you can log this cache, which is at the published coordinates" - this is more like a multi or puzzle (a bonus cache). It also amounts to finding specifically named caches.

However:

"Your challenge is to find 20 of the caches in this power trail / area before you can log this cache, which is at the published coordinates" is a challenge.

A challenge should always be to find a subset of possible qualifying caches, not all of them.

Comments

Agreed - however most of the 'challenges' that are of this format whether 'find all' or 'find a proportion of' have been set by the same owner of the trail / caches in question (not always a trail - GC27P0F for example) - I was always under the impression (and I believe none of the UK reviewers would have allowed this before or after the moratorium) that you could not set a challenge to find your own caches (whatever the number set)

Answer 4

Why did this come up in the challenge checkers list - it is a TRAD !!!!

https://coord.info/GC50G5B

Comments

Downvoted in the moderate list -- not a challenge at all.

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I know - I downvoted too - however when I looked at it, I noted it was a TRAD - surely the only caches that should make the challenge checker list are 'UNKNOWNS' that have the word 'challenge' in the title, as they are the ones that are ambiguous. There are thousands of NON-Unknowns that have the word challenge in the title - surely they are not all going to have to be voted on ???

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I also downvoted it. I guess someone added it to the moderation list when it shouldn't have been there.

The whole point of the moderation list is to get a more accurate list of challenges instead of using the "unknown with the word challenge in the title" filter. So we can get rid of caches which meet that definition but aren't challenges and bring in caches which don't meet the definition that really are.

For example, a lot of the older challenges in French-speaking areas used the word "Défi" instead of "Challenge". These were never getting picked up before the exception list came in. Additionally, there are several unknowns with the word "Challenge" in the name that are not challenge caches like https://coord.info/GC4Y5QP . This one, for example, is supposedly suggesting that the puzzle is challenging.