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Feedback on new badge: Difficulty of Jasmer cacher badge

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I have been looking at the makeover that the badge system has gotten as of late - in particular the new badge types.

Keeping to just one: The Jasmer cache, I have a few questions.

1. Difficulty curve of Jasmer badge

I have noticed that the new Jasmer has a very steep difficulty curve compared to other badges with max values (only 360 degrees in the circle, only 103 attributes collectable), the Jasmer cache has a very steep curve to get to the gem badges ?

Here it is as a table, comparing the percentages of Diamond level for All round cacher and the Attributes cacher against Jasmer's levels:

All roundAttributeJasmer
Bronze12,548,515,2
Silver25,058,330,4
Gold33,368,060,8
Platinum50,077,791,1
Ruby75,087,497,0
Sapphire83,392,298,3
Emerald97,297,199,2
Diamond100,0100,0100,0

Shown are percentages compared to value needed for diamond (max). Highlighted in bold is the highest badge that rounding 90,0% of the value needed for diamond badge will grant you. Here it is as a graph:

Jasmer difficulty graph

Suggestion: Bring the difficulty of the Jasmer cache more in line with the rest of badges.

If you were to align the Jasmer badge to the difficulty of, say, the Attribute cacher, the progression in months requirement would look like this:

Jasmer (proposed)
Bronze116
Silver139
Gold162
Platinum185
Ruby208
Sapphire219
Emerald231
Diamond237

Values within the vicinity of the above would be my proposal.

2. Diamond level for Jasmer badge as time moves on

Title says it all. Currently, Diamond is obtained at 237 months. Counting both May 2000 and February of 2020, the total max is now 238 months. Not considering scenarios that include the end of the world or other event that will potentially stop people from getting new cache listings published, presumably there max will pretty much increase by one for each new month we enter. Will the total be revised or is it the plan that 237 will forever be diamond level?
asked Feb 20 in Miscellaneous by Funky_Boris (9,640 points)

1 Answer

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Best answer

According to the wiki, the gemstone levels will scale as the months increase, diamond will always be the max possible so it will downgrade over time if not kept up with. The medals will be static values so the lowest the badge can be downgraded by inactivity is to platinum. This might explain the current odd curve as this badge will dynamically change.

https://project-gc.com/w/The_Jasmer_Cacher

answered Feb 20 by Geokid12 (1,000 points)
selected Feb 21 by Funky_Boris
That's what I call a helpful answer :)

I was not aware of the wiki. That explains the mechanisms I ask about in question 2.

I stand by my critisism of the curve for gemstones, however. Starting the platinum at 200 would be more reasonable. Placing diamond at 100% is practically unattainable (everyone without exception will be downgraded to emerald at the beginning of a new month pending a find of a cache or event yet to be published).

I will revise my original proposal. The difficulty should be more in line with 200+(30,60,80,90)% respectively.
Again according to the wiki, the current month is not included. Thus, once you have achieved the diamond badge you will keep that as long as you log a cache from the current month before it ends. Compared to the difficulty of the finding some of the old months, this is simple.
That will still make it the case that in order for the Jasmer platinum badge to reach the same difficulty level as platinum Attribute cacher (same percentage of max), another 5,5 years needs to pass.

I still think that you've set this one too high :)
It's not useful to compare difficulties like that. You can publish new caches with all the attributes needed for leveling the attribute badge but you obviously can't publish new 2000 caches, so the Jasmer badge is by definition harder.
Also think the Jasmer badge should be the hardest one and not easy to get gem stones like other badges.
I also did not have the Jasmer fulfilled yet. But as described I try hard to get old caches, tavel a lot to get them.

So I hope Jasmer will stay like today and be the hardest challenge to get diamond or even gemstone. (just my 5 cent :-)
@pinkunicorn: Yes, I think that we are way past the point of arguing whether Jasmer is harder - it certainly is.

Your argument, however that "it is unhelpful to comapare two badges and critisise that you think that one of them has a too steep difficulty curve because the easiest one of those can be made even easier" constitutes "not useful" in my eyes, but let's not split hairs over that :P

We all give our 5 cents. Mine are that Project GC have, for this particular badge, set the difficulty curve in such a way to exclude most cachers from participating in any meaningful way and incentivised a very small minority to do extensive traveling to obtain it. If this is by accident, now you know. If it is by design, that is your prerogative as holders of the intellectual property.

I will leave the thread open. Others are welcome to chime in on whatever side of this issue that they stand on or with new feedback. Thank you all for your time :)
In my opinion one of the aspects that need to be taken into account with Jasmer is that the Jasmer concept has existed since many years and was not invented by project gc. For this reason, offering diamond level for something below full Jasmer would be in conflict with what the Jasmer challenge means.
With regard to the levels for the gem stones below diamond, it makes a lot of sense in my opinion to the set them that it is unlikely that someone who has not actively worked towards Jasmer, gets high levels. I do not care about badges at all and have not worked towards Jasmer - ending up with Platinum is very reasonable, everything higher would be ridiculous. It seems plausible to set the levels in a manner that someone who has none of the old precious months which are hard to get does not reach a gem stone level. That's the nature of Jasmer.
I really wonder about your implicit statement that if someone cannot reach a gem level without travelling they are excluded from a meaningful  participation. It's just like if those who have no chances to be on the podium of a sports competition have no meaningful way to take part. Geocaching is more than trying to achieve gem stones levels on all badges.
The entire game is centered around choices.  Each person is different and will evaluate the game based on their own frame-of-reference.  In my humble opinion, creating a reward system that will accommodate the greatest majority in a game, so diverse, is a monumental task.  

Specifically, I always look for the oldest caches in the area when I plan a trip.  For me, the Jasmer challenge is probably one of the most difficult objectives.  Unfortunately, I do not have the resources to take a road trip just to fill in a specific objective so it will take me years to complete.  I'm OK with that.

Additionally, this challenge cannot be manipulated by the unscrupulous and is a true reflection of effort unlike the Fizzy challenge where stacking is rampant.  One way to always ensure filling in the current month is to attend an event published in that month.  If you are not an event type person, then, just find a cache published that month.  It's an elegant solution to allow all to participate.

With that said, I am very grateful to those who have upgraded this reward system and added this badge.  I believe they have done an excellent job to consider all variables and implemented a successful reward system to encompass the greatest number of worldwide cache enthusiasts.  Well done!
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