Is it a challenge or not? [closed]

Question

UPDATE: Closed this topic, got more replies than I expected. Thank you all. If you really want access, you can always contact support.

This really isn't a question, more a call to arms.

Most of you probably know what a challenge cache is. You might also be aware of the fact that sometimes geocaches are Unknowns with the word Challenge in the name, even though they aren't a challenge. The opposite also exists, geocaches that are challenges, but don't have a proper name.

To determine if a cache really is a challenge, Project-GC has something called Challenge exceptions. This is a list of exceptions. Users who are moderators for this can add exceptions to the list, and the community then votes if it's a challenge or not. For example, if two users vote It's not a challenge while seven users vote It's a challenge, it's likely to be a challenge.

We then calculate a certainty score from the votes with a similar formula (the same actually) that we calculate FP Wilson Score with. As it is today, if the certainty is >= 32%, we trust the votes.

We currently have around 30 users who has permission to give these votes, and are looking for a few more volunteers. It would be extra interesting to get volunteers who speaks other languages than Swedish and English for example, since it's obviously easier to understand if it's a challenge or not when you speak the language.

Currently there are almost 2000 exceptions in the list, over 6000 votes has been placed to determine if these are challenges or not.

We are planning to increase the required certainty from 32% to 35%, but before we do that, there are 93 exceptions that needs additional voting (to get 35% or above). 93 isn't a lot to be honest. I have myself been doing a handful a day for a week now.

Anyway, if you are interested in helping out maintaining this list you need permission. Just answer with a comment or answer in this thread the coming 1-2 weeks and we will grant you permission.

The list can be found here (once you have access): https://project-gc.com/Challenges?moderate

Comments

I would like to help in Danish

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Permission granted to IsabellaMolly as well. I know you have a real interest in Challenges. :)

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I can help as well for English

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Permission granted to Sherminator18 as well.

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I can help with this. I speak English and Korean.

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Permission to Crazedllama granted as well. Korean sounds pretty cool. I don't know how many challenges there are, but I still find the language interesting, from a personal point of view.

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I can help with Finnish as well.

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Permission to kyrasantae granted. If I am not wrong, I think there are three users speaking Finnish in the permission list now. It was a single user only an hour ago. Definitely better than before.

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Hi,
I interested in checkîng french challenges.

Djgoub

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I can help with Polish.

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djgoub and a.scieszka added!

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I would like to help in German (native) and English.

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Permission to Kianga83 granted as well.

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I can help in English and Spanish.

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I can help with dutch and english

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Permission to PnavE_81 added.

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I notice there are some caches in the list that dont't have challenge in the name. Why are they there?

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Some challenges were published without the word 'challenge' in the name. They want to add those caches to the challenges list.

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Some countries have also had a standard to use a local word for challenge. I believe that's common in both Finland and France. I don't think it was HQs intent though.

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I can help very specifically with one of my own puzzle caches:

GC34Q3T Find the ooo (A challenge for K&Co)

Although it is a very challenging puzzle it is NOT a challenge.

MrCryptic

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Find the ooo is already on the list. Currently with four negative votes and will not be considered as a challenge by Project-GC.

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Can help with Czech, Slovak, English and bit of French and Spanish. Can also offer my bookmark that is focusing on those exceptions (having challenge in name but not being a challenge) since my own challenge cache is working with that. :)

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Granted permission to ufemezumik.
It's fairly easy to add new exceptions, as long as you have the GC-Codes. Needs to be added one at a time though. Don't worry if it's already in the exception list, adding it again is just an alternative way of voting.

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I can help fo you still need English speakers

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Granted permission to Lulybelle

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I'd love to help. English (and a dwindling mediocre capability with Bahas Indonesia)

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Permission granted to JustFindingOurWay.

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Yes, I'll be happy to help in French and English

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Permission to iamtrekmaniac granted.

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I'm happy to help too. English and Finnish are my languages.

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I'd like to help too. My main languages are Finnish and English but I can help with Swedish too.

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Permission to mmcash and tanjulainen has been granted.

Answer 1

If you would like more English speakers, then I am willing to help.

Comments

Absolutely, permission granted. English is probably the most helpful language, but also the one that most speaks. Regardless, help is always welcome. The more the merrier and so on. :)

The fact is that more votes is good. There are a few exceptions in the list where there are pretty much the same amount of up-votes as down-votes. Not every single potential challenge is super clear.

Answer 2

I am a little bit confused about how to vote. When do I vote "up", and when do I vote "down"?

Comments

It's good that you ask, I notice that the text doesn't really tell.
Vote UP/Yes if it IS a challenge.
Vote Down/No if it is NOT a challenge.

I'll look into adding a text string for that.

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Just noticed, there is a mouse-over tooltip (if using a computer and mouse) on the arrows which actually tells what they do.

Answer 3

Yes, I would like to help in Dutch and German (pluse some French)

Nico (MoVeD)

Comments

Thank you. French will probably come in extra handy. I have granted you permission, it could potentially take a minute or two before it actually works though.

Answer 4

In addition to Swedish and English, also Finnish available here.

Comments

Permission granted. As I told MoVeD, it might take a minute or two for the data-caches to clear out. Finnish is probably also a language that is extra needed.

PS! Miss you on IRC. ;)

Answer 5

Yes, I can help too. (German, English and Italian)

Comments

Thank you. Permission granted!

Answer 6

I can help with Czech/Slovak, English, maybe German and a little bit other similar languages to Czech (Polish, Slovenian, Croatian)

Comments

Thank you. Permission granted!

Answer 7

Me too! For English, Romanian, maybe a bit of Danish and French

Comments

Permission granted. As I recall your list of languages from last time we met, you should list those you don't speak. Also, sorry to hear about your loss (of bike).

Answer 8

I can help with Swedish and English if you need more help in those languages.

Comments

Permission granted. It's the two languages that usually are most covered on the site, but still, redundancy is not wrong. It's also great to share the work.

To be honest, we might open this up to everyone in the future, if we find the need for it.

Answer 9

I could help in German or maybe in English

Comments

Permission granted!

Answer 10

I can help with Italian, Portuguese and of course english

Comments

Permission granted of course!

Answer 11

I can help with Danish challenges.

Comments

Permission granted.

Answer 12

I can help in English and Spanish.

Comments

Permission granted.

Answer 13

I can help with English

Comments

Permission granted. Sorry for the wait, I was at the dentist for 1-2 hours. :)

Answer 14

I can help with French (my first language).

Comments

Permission granted. Sorry for the wait, I was at the dentist for 1-2 hours. :)

Answer 15

Yes, if you are still looking for help. I can help with english and german.

Axel (AJoS)

Comments

Permission granted. Sorry for the wait, I was at the dentist for 1-2 hours. :)

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No problem, I hope the dentist did a good work.

I checked some of the caches on the list and found that some of them are already archived (e.g. GC3QF0C - Défi 1 cache ! .... archived in 2012 ... why are these caches on this list and even more curious why does this cache has 6 Yes votes???

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Regarding GC3QF0C. It's clear to me that it's a challenge. It requires ONE find, which a newly registered don't fulfill.

Archived geocaches are included because they can be challenges as well. First off, they might still exist and be loggable. Secondly, users has probably logged them, and for statistical purposes we want to know if it's a challenge or not. But mostly, why wouldn't they be included?

Answer 16

Is there a place to discuss some of these challenges?

Some aren't really that clear cut, and I can see arguments for both views. Maybe discussing my doubts with others will make it clearer

Comments

Since we don't have an active forum that is read by most users frequently, I don't think it would work.

Otherwise, we have both this forum and https://project-gc.com/forum available. But I wouldn't expect that a conversation would get going.

I could set up a dedicated section in the forum for it though. But still, doubt it will be followed. I have myself voted against the crowd (there is a filter for it) on several of them, and those I have reviewed my opinion of an extra time, some I have changed my vote on, some I stand my ground on.

I believe discussing could be of negative effect if it's too few. It's easy that some users will just follow what others thinks. That's also something we have changed on the Exception page. A week ago, one could see the votes before voting. Now it's change to +-, so one doesn't know. This forces one to think and read before throwing the vote.

But these special cases that you are looking at, those are the main reason that I wanted to raise the minimum certainty required, and also add more voters.

What I can think of that would also help, is to add a filter to find those that does have a more "even" score. Not sure how to define it yet, but maybe has at least 2 votes that didn't follow the crowd. In that way, it's easy to find those that needs careful reading. What do you think about that?

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Maybe it is a good thing to just have the votes say it all. I'm not sure.
I now already have immediate doubts when I see I voted against the crowd after voting myself, although I totally understand that these cases are mostly the reason you need "us" to help.

An extra filter with the most controversial cases would be a good thing I guess.

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There seem to be 9 exceptions added that has at least 2 up-votes and at least 2 down-votes. I will add the filter to the live servers soon.

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The formula used to calculate the certainty will also consider that the voters doesn't agree. It's much harder to improve the percent if 1-2 has voted against the rest, which in a way will force more to vote on it.

In simple turns. 3 up-votes is worth more than 4 up-votes and 1 down-vote.

I notice that I myself have only voted on 8 of 9 which "we" disagree on. But I really don't understand the language of that last one. Looking at the logs, it does seem like people has considered it to be a challenge though. But that doesn't say if it's optional for example.

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The new filter is there, but it doesn't seem to work yet. (At least for me on my android phone)

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@PnavE_81: You are correct. Works well on the development servers, never tested it live. It should just work after a release.

But I found an issue with one of the live servers, currently working on a fix.

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@PnavE_81: Now it works as it should! At least on desktop, but I assume Android works as well. It's a small JavaScript snippet only.

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@PnavE_81: You saved me a lot of work by the way. I had another thing that didn't work, which I had been debugging for 1-2 hours. You pointed me in the right direction. :)

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I can confirm it works now.
Saw you added the 4th filter this afternoon (CET) already but it didn't work. Guessed you were still working on it then. So it didnt mention it sooner

Answer 17

Yes, more than happy to help

I love challenge caches and like the idea of a process to consider whether some are suitable

await consideration

Tim

Comments

Permission granted.

Answer 18

I'd be happy to lend a helping hand. Swedish and English...

Comments

Permission granted.

Answer 19

I would like to help in German and English (Dutch and French would also be possible).

Carsten

Comments

Permission granted.

Answer 20

I would like to help. I have just started with challenges in France. English is my first language and have some French.

Agedboy

Comments

Permission granted.