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Is it a challenge or not? [closed]

+4 votes
1,452 views

UPDATE: Closed this topic, got more replies than I expected. Thank you all. If you really want access, you can always contact support.

This really isn't a question, more a call to arms.

Most of you probably know what a challenge cache is. You might also be aware of the fact that sometimes geocaches are Unknowns with the word Challenge in the name, even though they aren't a challenge. The opposite also exists, geocaches that are challenges, but don't have a proper name.

To determine if a cache really is a challenge, Project-GC has something called Challenge exceptions. This is a list of exceptions. Users who are moderators for this can add exceptions to the list, and the community then votes if it's a challenge or not. For example, if two users vote It's not a challenge while seven users vote It's a challenge, it's likely to be a challenge.

We then calculate a certainty score from the votes with a similar formula (the same actually) that we calculate FP Wilson Score with. As it is today, if the certainty is >= 32%, we trust the votes.

We currently have around 30 users who has permission to give these votes, and are looking for a few more volunteers. It would be extra interesting to get volunteers who speaks other languages than Swedish and English for example, since it's obviously easier to understand if it's a challenge or not when you speak the language.

Currently there are almost 2000 exceptions in the list, over 6000 votes has been placed to determine if these are challenges or not.

We are planning to increase the required certainty from 32% to 35%, but before we do that, there are 93 exceptions that needs additional voting (to get 35% or above). 93 isn't a lot to be honest. I have myself been doing a handful a day for a week now.

Anyway, if you are interested in helping out maintaining this list you need permission. Just answer with a comment or answer in this thread the coming 1-2 weeks and we will grant you permission.

The list can be found here (once you have access): https://project-gc.com/Challenges?moderate

closed with the note: Got plenty of volunteers now.
asked May 24, 2018 in Miscellaneous by magma1447 (Admin) (208,230 points)
closed May 28, 2018 by magma1447 (Admin)
Yes, I'll be happy to help in French and English
Permission to iamtrekmaniac granted.
I'm happy to help too. English and Finnish are my languages.
I'd like to help too. My main languages are Finnish and English but I can help with Swedish too.
Permission to mmcash and tanjulainen has been granted.

36 Answers

+1 vote
Yes, I would like to help in Dutch and German (pluse some French)

Nico (MoVeD)
answered May 24, 2018 by MoVeD (200 points)
Thank you. French will probably come in extra handy. I have granted you permission, it could potentially take a minute or two before it actually works though.
+1 vote
In addition to Swedish and English, also Finnish available here.
answered May 24, 2018 by ekhoc (170 points)
Permission granted. As I told MoVeD, it might take a minute or two for the data-caches to clear out. Finnish is probably also a language that is extra needed.

PS! Miss you on IRC. ;)
+1 vote
Yes, I can help too. (German, English and Italian)
answered May 24, 2018 by SalzburgerIgnore (1,900 points)
Thank you. Permission granted!
+1 vote
I can help with Czech/Slovak, English, maybe German and a little bit other similar languages to Czech (Polish, Slovenian, Croatian)
answered May 24, 2018 by 3,14 D (170 points)
Thank you. Permission granted!
+2 votes
If you would like more English speakers, then I am willing to help.
answered May 24, 2018 by schwandt (730 points)
Absolutely, permission granted. English is probably the most helpful language, but also the one that most speaks. Regardless, help is always welcome. The more the merrier and so on. :)

The fact is that more votes is good. There are a few exceptions in the list where there are pretty much the same amount of up-votes as down-votes. Not every single potential challenge is super clear.
+1 vote
Me too! For English, Romanian, maybe a bit of Danish and French
answered May 24, 2018 by Radu C (170 points)
Permission granted. As I recall your list of languages from last time we met, you should list those you don't speak. Also, sorry to hear about your loss (of bike).
+1 vote
I can help with Swedish and English if you need more help in those languages.
answered May 24, 2018 by Cii102 (170 points)
Permission granted. It's the two languages that usually are most covered on the site, but still, redundancy is not wrong. It's also great to share the work.

To be honest, we might open this up to everyone in the future, if we find the need for it.
+1 vote
I could help in German or maybe in English
answered May 24, 2018 by XETRO (170 points)
Permission granted!
+1 vote
I can help with Italian, Portuguese and of course english
answered May 24, 2018 by ilTozzo (300 points)
Permission granted of course!
+1 vote
I can help with Danish challenges.
answered May 24, 2018 by Geoborderne (970 points)
Permission granted.
+2 votes
I am a little bit confused about how to vote. When do I vote "up", and when do I vote "down"?
answered May 24, 2018 by kyrasantae (190 points)
It's good that you ask, I notice that the text doesn't really tell.
Vote UP/Yes if it IS a challenge.
Vote Down/No if it is NOT a challenge.

I'll look into adding a text string for that.
Just noticed, there is a mouse-over tooltip (if using a computer and mouse) on the arrows which actually tells what they do.
+1 vote
I can help in English and Spanish.
answered May 24, 2018 by -DOLFINANDO- (3,050 points)
Permission granted.
+1 vote
I can help with English
answered May 24, 2018 by FSUchris (170 points)
Permission granted. Sorry for the wait, I was at the dentist for 1-2 hours. :)
+1 vote
I can help with French (my first language).
answered May 24, 2018 by Bouffe (190 points)
Permission granted. Sorry for the wait, I was at the dentist for 1-2 hours. :)
+1 vote
Yes, if you are still looking for help. I can help with english and german.

Axel (AJoS)
answered May 24, 2018 by AJoS (170 points)
Permission granted. Sorry for the wait, I was at the dentist for 1-2 hours. :)
No problem, I hope the dentist did a good work.

I checked some of the caches on the list and found that some of them are already archived (e.g. GC3QF0C - Défi 1 cache ! .... archived in 2012 ... why are these caches on this list and even more curious why does this cache has 6 Yes votes???
Regarding GC3QF0C. It's clear to me that it's a challenge. It requires ONE find, which a newly registered don't fulfill.

Archived geocaches are included because they can be challenges as well. First off, they might still exist and be loggable. Secondly, users has probably logged them, and for statistical purposes we want to know if it's a challenge or not. But mostly, why wouldn't they be included?
+1 vote
Is there a place to discuss some of these challenges?

Some aren't really that clear cut, and I can see arguments for both views. Maybe discussing my doubts with others will make it clearer
answered May 24, 2018 by PnavE_81 (250 points)
Since we don't have an active forum that is read by most users frequently, I don't think it would work.

Otherwise, we have both this forum and https://project-gc.com/forum available. But I wouldn't expect that a conversation would get going.

I could set up a dedicated section in the forum for it though. But still, doubt it will be followed. I have myself voted against the crowd (there is a filter for it) on several of them, and those I have reviewed my opinion of an extra time, some I have changed my vote on, some I stand my ground on.

I believe discussing could be of negative effect if it's too few. It's easy that some users will just follow what others thinks. That's also something we have changed on the Exception page. A week ago, one could see the votes before voting. Now it's change to +-, so one doesn't know. This forces one to think and read before throwing the vote.

But these special cases that you are looking at, those are the main reason that I wanted to raise the minimum certainty required, and also add more voters.

What I can think of that would also help, is to add a filter to find those that does have a more "even" score. Not sure how to define it yet, but maybe has at least 2 votes that didn't follow the crowd. In that way, it's easy to find those that needs careful reading. What do you think about that?
Maybe it is a good thing to just have the votes say it all. I'm not sure.
I now already have immediate doubts when I see I voted against the crowd after voting myself, although I totally understand that these cases are mostly the reason you need "us" to help.

An extra filter with the most controversial cases would be a good thing I guess.
There seem to be 9 exceptions added that has at least 2 up-votes and at least 2 down-votes. I will add the filter to the live servers soon.
The formula used to calculate the certainty will also consider that the voters doesn't agree. It's much harder to improve the percent if 1-2 has voted against the rest, which in a way will force more to vote on it.

In simple turns. 3 up-votes is worth more than 4 up-votes and 1 down-vote.

I notice that I myself have only voted on 8 of 9 which "we" disagree on. But I really don't understand the language of that last one. Looking at the logs, it does seem like people has considered it to be a challenge though. But that doesn't say if it's optional for example.
The new filter is there, but it doesn't seem to work yet. (At least for me on my android phone)
@PnavE_81: You are correct. Works well on the development servers, never tested it live. It should just work after a release.

But I found an issue with one of the live servers, currently working on a fix.
@PnavE_81: Now it works as it should! At least on desktop, but I assume Android works as well. It's a small JavaScript snippet only.
@PnavE_81: You saved me a lot of work by the way. I had another thing that didn't work, which I had been debugging for 1-2 hours. You pointed me in the right direction. :)
I can confirm it works now.
Saw you added the 4th filter this afternoon (CET) already but it didn't work. Guessed you were still working on it then. So it didnt mention it sooner
+1 vote
Yes, more than happy to help

I love challenge caches and like the idea of a process to consider whether some are suitable

await consideration

Tim
answered May 24, 2018 by Deepdiggingmole (3,020 points)
Permission granted.
+1 vote
I'd be happy to lend a helping hand. Swedish and English...
answered May 24, 2018 by mossenlindarna (170 points)
Permission granted.
+1 vote
I would like to help in German and English (Dutch and French would also be possible).

Carsten
answered May 24, 2018 by DrHool (3,350 points)
Permission granted.
+1 vote
I would like to help. I have just started with challenges in France. English is my first language and have some French.

Agedboy
answered May 24, 2018 by Agedboy (170 points)
Permission granted.
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