Re: Exception List

I posted the above on FB on the PGC page - as not everyone will be on FB - I'll repeat it here
(I had added it under the test page and seems it has been missed there - so adding as a new post now)

I welcome the possibility of having a dedicated forum to discuss those challenge caches that appear in the exception list that have not had a conclusive vote (i.e. - not been voted conclusively as 'yes' a challenge or 'no' not a challenge)
I appreciate that many who will read this will not have access to the exception list - but I feel that with these ambiguous caches as the moderators have not come to an agreement - some sensible discussion in the wider forum (here) could enable those moderators to reconsider their vote - it may not but that is the idea

OK - so onto my post - I have italicised it to show this was what was put in its entirety on FB (I have added a couple of words for clarity)

I saw another post (On Facebook) regarding challenge caches and would like feedback on what should be considered as challenges.
The reason I ask is, the baseline for caches to end up on the exception list (where they get voted on as to whether they are challenge caches or not) they are unknown/mystery and have the word challenge in the title - then the content is reviewed and moderators vote.
A little group of caches such as the following (the others all in the same vein) GC7WDPH - all require you to have found a coloured Jeep TB.
Now .... this cache was post moratorium and so should have had a checker - it didn't and would not have as it does not comply with guidelines - however it and others got mistakenly published but since archived when the reviewer realised the error.
So.... these all got voted on
I downvoted as I feel as it should not have been accepted as a challenge, and so should not appear in lists as a challenge cache.
Others have stated - "but the content (criteria) constitutes a challenge so it must be one" .
In upvoting this means that this and others appear on the challenge cache list in the challenge tab (on PGC) for cachers that have found these. As this should not have been allowed in the first place I would argue this should not be upvoted - to my surprise I was very outvoted for these

Thoughts

Deepdiggingmole Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> I downvoted as I feel as it should not have been
> accepted as a challenge, and so should not appear
> in lists as a challenge cache.

But the question is: "Is it a challenge cache", not "Does it follow all guidelines". Reviewers check guidelines. The idea of exceptions is to record the state of the cache not to correct the state.

arisoft Wrote:


But the question is: "Is it a challenge cache", not "Does it follow all guidelines". Reviewers check guidelines. The idea of exceptions is to record the state of the cache not to correct the state.

Reviewers do not always get it right and many caches that have been published should not have been as the reviewers have not understood the guidelines or have been mislead due to the cache page displaying a checker etc etc -
Many reviewers are of the understanding that if a challenge has a checker attached to it - it has been through PGC and therefore it is OK. Many reviewers do not understand the working of a checker and do not realise that one can be cloned and added to the page without putting a proper request through PGC - this means that many challenges are published where they breach the challenge guidelines. Had the reviewer been on the ball they would not be published and we not be voting for them.
PGC advise many cachers whether their challenge breaches the guidelines at checker request stage.
I personally feel (and I know this is not the view of all ) that the exception list should identify those challenge caches that are allowed to be because they follow the guidelines not just because there is a list of criteria and has the word challenge in the title
If it breaches the guidelines it should NOT be a challenge cache - surely PGC is putting out a confusing message by saying - ah! but if it says it is, then it must be !
There are many challenges that have ended up on individual challenge cache lists that should not be there because the cache should not have been published in the first place but they are there because PGC are saying 'but they are OK because we have upvoted them' - mixed messages about what is/is - not should/should not be a challenge cache

IMHO

Deepdiggingmole Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Reviewers do not always get it right and many
> caches that have been published should not have
> been as the reviewers have not understood the
> guidelines or have been mislead due to the cache
> page displaying a checker etc etc -

There are many kind of problems with guidelines. But you can not know if the HQ has already accepted the challenge or not. Sometimes I know forehand that reviewers will not accpet a challenge idea and I suggest the CO to ask permission from the HQ before submitting the cache. Nobody else have no way to verify if the challenge is officially accepted or not.

If you see any problematic challenge you should report it to HQ, not to exception list. If HQ desides that the challenge is not following the guidelines they will archive the challenge and that's it. If it was published as a challenge cache with challenge cache ALR and archived because of error in publishing process, it will stay as a challenge cache for any player who has already found the cache before it was archived.


Deepdiggingmole Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Many reviewers are of the understanding that if a
> challenge has a checker attached to it - it has
> been through PGC and therefore it is OK. Many

PGC do not accept or deny challenge ideas. If a reviewer accepts a challenge it will get the checker if it is possible to create. It the idea is questionable the checker may not be created until the CO has got green light from the reviewer.

"PGC do not accept or deny challenge ideas. If a reviewer accepts a challenge it will get the checker if it is possible to create. It the idea is questionable the checker may not be created until the CO has got green light from the reviewer".

Though, often it is the other way round - as does happen in a lot of cases and certainly with several I have raised, where the checker is already on the cache page (this being because the CO has NOT approached PGC but have scoured around for an old checker and cloned it) The reviewer then seeing the checker on the cache page is under the impression that this may have gone through the checker request process and so must have been approved by PGC and so publish the cache.
Many reviewers know that PGC will give advice on whether a challenge does fall within the guidelines and will approve or otherwise checker requests and with that in mind consider the presence of a checker as a green light to going ahead and publishing.
It is NOT always the case, as in the quote above, that COs will approach the reviewer first - check to see if they will publish and then get the checker from PGC
Certainly in the example in the OP - the reviewer wasn't approached first and a checker then obtained as a checker was not added to the page at all.

Deepdiggingmole Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> The reviewer
> then seeing the checker on the cache page is under
> the impression that this may have gone through the
> checker request process and so must have been
> approved by PGC and so publish the cache.

Reviewers must know that PGC do not approve challenges. At least our local reviewers know this very well.

Sometimes a CO may think that if they get a checker the challenge is somehow approved. It is possible that I have told a CO that similar challenges has been accepted earlier and it is possible but sometimes it will not pass the reviewer.

There is an undisclosed guideline stating that a challenge checker is allowed only for challenge caches. So ... if the cache has a challenge checker, its name contains word "challenge" and it is a mystery cache type then it is published as a challenge without a doubt.

"Reviewers must know that PGC do not approve challenges. At least our local reviewers know this very well."

Missed my point
It isn't the challenges PGC approve, it is the checkers - and many reviewers believe that if the checker is OK then so must the challenge - so if they see it on the cache page then it must be OK - but we know that is not always the case

They shouldn't believe the checker.

If they accept a challenge wihout checking the requirements there is high possibility that the cache will be archived. Here is an example https://www.geocaching.com/geocache/GC7WDQB_oiiiiio-32-green-jeep-trackable-challenge

PGC Exception List is not made for voting whether a challenge is following guidelines or not.
In the future it may be possible to publish this kind of challenge: https://www.geocaching.com/geocache/GC8CCKJ_die-challenge-challenge
When it is possible it is important that players who met the challenge and found the cache will get the correct status.

"There is an undisclosed guideline stating that a challenge checker is allowed only for challenge caches. So ... if the cache has a challenge checker, its name contains word "challenge" and it is a mystery cache type then it is published as a challenge without a doubt."

And... as has been seen in many cases the caches gets published however they do not comply with the guidelines, despite there being a checker - so should not have